LATE SHOW NEWS #155 June 2, 1997 by Aaron Barnhart Will there ever be another permanent host for "Later," or will it become the "NBC Friday Night" of chat? The latter is becoming increasingly likely as guest host after guest host runs through the turnstiles. The reason, a source says, for NBC's lack of commitment: no host has had a measurable impact on ratings. Apparently the network believes that there is someone out there who can deliver new viewers at 1:35 a.m. This sounds strangely reminiscent of a story Tom Snyder is fond of telling about his years doing the "Tomorrow Show" (same network, same time). Snyder attended a meeting once of NBC executives who were vexed by their research findings. It seems that people were tuning out in large numbers during the last half hour of "Tomorrow" -- the 1:30 to 2 a.m. segment -- and they just couldn't figure out why. Retelling the story, Snyder never failed to bust a gut: "And I said, 'Guys, it's two o'clock in the morning!' Sheesh!" *** Yet another for-Lorne imitation sighting, this one from a reader named Lynne: "According to the recent issue of Allure magazine, Elaine's odd dancing moves portrayed in this past season's 'Seinfeld' were completely Lorne Michaels' moves! It is in an article about dancing" ... Ty Burr has a more credible take on the late-night Web sites in the June 6 Entertainment Weekly than the one I ripped here a few weeks ago. But still, his emphasis on "official" Web sites is distressing, especially given the decentralized, who's-in- charge-here-anyway nature of the Internet ... My counterpart Chuck Taylor of the Seattle Times tells me that viewers in that market are in for a rude -- well, "awakening" is not the right word for something on that late at night, but they're not going to be very happy for most of the month of June. Because stations KIRO and KSTW are doing a station swap, and because KSTW wants to try out an hour newscast now that it's no longer going to be a CBS affiliate, Dave won't come on until midnight beginning June 9 and continuing till CBS programs actually depart KSTW for KIRO, which Chuck says should happen June 30. At that point, tune to KIRO at 11:35 and all will be well again. *** Reader mail: David Thiel was on hand for the "Politically Incorrect" taping I mentioned last week, in which Harvey Fierstein and Mike Reagan got into it. He writes, "I don't feel that ABC owed Reagan any sort of apology. Reagan well demonstrated his ability to be a horse's ass, and had already made some crass (even for 'PI') remarks about Fierstein's lack of religion. While Harvey went off on him a bit more than was necessary, it was an ugly show on the part of all four guests. Even Lynn Redgrave very nearly flipped off the artist-formerly-known-as-Johnny Rotten on-camera. The audience, which had been well-coached to laugh and applaud, had little to laugh at by the final third of the program, and there were even some scattered boos, mostly directed at Reagan. Not one of the better efforts for 'PI,' but that's bound to happen with such an unpredictable format" ... Harrison Wyman, noting the decision by New York's CBS affiliate to begin Dave five minutes early, writes, "Here in old DC, WUSA (ch. 9) ends its newscast at 11:30 and runs five minutes worth of commercials between the end of the news and the start of 'Late Show.' I would think that five minutes of commercials would be a turnoff. It is for me." *** LATE NIGHT CHESS GAME by Mark Evanier It was not that long ago that David Letterman's weekly rating usually started with a "6" and Jay Leno's with a "4." One of Dave's staffers at the time told me that Dave's happiness was incomplete unless "he's in the sixes and Jay's in the fours." These days, with Jay often in the fives and Dave always in the threes (usually, the low threes), it is safe to say Mr. Letterman is not as happy. CBS execs voice confidence that David will soon be back on top -- or, at least, competitive -- but no one is wagering their lunch money on the prospect. Their head programming honcho, Les Moonves, has reportedly taken a fair amount of ribbing for his predicting skills ("His streak stops at one," he said the first time Leno won the weekly ratings two years ago). Moonves is now making only vague projections that, at some indeterminate point, Dave will recover. But a few things can be predicted with some confidence. One is that soon, we will reach a point where NBC feels they can claim that, in the cumulative ratings battle since Letterman went head-to-head with Leno nearly four years ago, Jay is now ahead. It is also safe to forecast that, when NBC begins claiming this, CBS will release a report that computes the overall ratings by some different measure -- one that shows Letterman still in the lead. One can crunch numbers so they prove darn near anything if one is being paid enough. But that's about all that can be confidently forecast. The conventional wisdom in the TV biz seems to be that Leno will remain comfortably ahead of Letterman as long as the late night schedules -- and their respective shows -- remain essentially the same. When new programs debut, they may shake things up enough to change the Jay/Dave gap -- though no one is predicting in which direction. (Although the Conventional Wisdom hasn't proven too wise about Dave-vs.-Jay. Before Letterman began at 11:35, most ad agencies believed he'd fare poorly for the first year or two, and would pull well ahead of Leno about the time he actually fell behind.) For the time being, both shows are doing what they can to bolster their ratings, mostly in terms of guest bookings. But they're also both heavily into "audience research" and studying what the other guy is doing. This is especially evident in their increased use of teasing what's coming up next. Dave is now telling us, over and over, that the Top Ten List is approaching. Jay is now leading into commercials with little clips of the next guest. It calls to mind an old rivalry back when NBC moved Steve Allen into prime time Sunday nights to go head-to-head with Ed Sullivan on CBS. Both shows were broadcast live and were known to rearrange their running orders in mid-show, based on what the competing show was doing. Ed, backstage at the same theater where Letterman now broadcasts, would watch his competitor's program and wait for a commercial. When it came, Sullivan would rush his hottest act on stage, hoping to snare viewers who decided to channel-surf while Steverino was hawking Polaroid cameras. Allen's people monitored Ed for the same strategic reasons. Jay and Dave, being taped ahead, can't quite do that, but both are clearly worried about switchover during commercials -- ergo, the increased teasing. Still, the name of the game is still to keep folks watching, and though all TV shows worry about their viewers changing channels, the late shows must also keep them from going to bed. One key tactic around NBC seems to have been to lengthen Jay's monologue segment. A "Tonight" staffer told me, "Jay always had a strong tune-in for his monologue, even when Dave was beating him. Everyone would watch Jay for the first ten, then switch over to Letterman or cable or go to bed. Now, they hang around long enough to be counted in the second quarter-hour ratings. And if they stick around that long, they're less likely to switch to Dave at all." Dave now keeps reminding us that the Top Ten List is coming up -- and often delays it until the middle of the show -- for much the same reason. Obviously, research has indicated that a certain amount of the audience stays tuned for it. Each staff has a long list of beliefs, fostered by research and studying the competition, as to what makes viewers stick around or grab for the remote. (Folks at both shows will officially deny watching the other. But they don't abstain as fully as they claim; they are well aware of what the other guy is doing and when he does it.) The research sometimes creates conundrums. Surveys show that a certain segment of the viewership -- young and especially desirable -- will tune in to see a fave musical act. But research also shows that a very large segment of the viewing audience goes to bed as soon as that act starts playing. So what do you do if you're a talk show producer? Easy: Book the hottest, biggest-name band available -- and then get them on as late in the show as possible. Recently, Leno scored a major coup with the booking of Depeche Mode, and he teased their appearance all through the hour to an audience of Depeche Mode fans, some of whom had camped out for days to get seats. Then he brought the group on at the last possible moment to play what must have been the shortest number in their repertoire. Letterman also now delays the musical guests with youngest appeal until as late as possible. This kind of research unfortunately adds to the increasing tendency for the two shows to become alike. In their zeal to counter what works for the competitor, they often match it. Some of Leno's comedy bits -- mostly remotes, and bits involving the studio personnel -- feel like deja vu to Letterman watchers. Dave is welcoming more guests now with embarrassing clips of their earlier work (a Jay specialty) and his monologue has grown increasingly longer and, some feel, more Leno-like. (Note to Mark: I'm pretty sure Dave, not Jay, popularized the practice of embarrassing his guests with early-career clips. -- AB) A couple Mondays ago, Dave did a joke about O.J. Simpson complaining about the problems of being a single parent. Did no one on his staff tell him that Jay had done the exact same joke -- with verbatim punchline, "Well, whose fault is that?" -- the previous Friday? This also happened the week before when Letterman did a joke about Ellen's TV parents and TV boss finding out she was gay. Leno -- or was it Bill Maher? -- had done the same joke, with the same snapper -- "Don't any of these people have TVs?" -- days earlier. (This is not theft. No one steals in such a situation. But some topical lines are obvious, and others make the rounds -- or are submitted by outsiders -- quickly. The point is that Dave and Jay are both working the same side of the street.) Personally, I think both shows should forget about research, forget about studying the other guy's strengths, and just do what they do best. Letterman can never best Leno in a contest of the monologues; among other advantages Jay has is that he practices in clubs and Vegas and actually enjoys it, whereas Dave does stand-up only under duress. Dave is also handicapped in offering up topical jokes since he tapes three hours before Leno and records his Friday show on Thursday. Similarly, Jay is never going to beat Dave when it comes to ad-libbing in spontaneous situations -- or at least making scripted lines sound improvised. Dave especially shines when the guest doesn't. Mr. Carson once said that the test of a talk show host wasn't when they had on Don Rickles or Buddy Hackett ("My dry cleaner could do a funny interview with Don") but when the guest was a stiff. That's when Jay trots out props and clips and prepared material, but Dave trots out wittier questions and comments. The bonus for us as viewers should be two good shows, each splendid in its own way. But lately, since they're only interested in the top guests who are starring in the hottest movies, their guest rosters are often the same names in a different sequence. And if they keep looking at research, and at what the other guy's doing, they will increasingly become splendid in precisely the same way. As they do, the victors of that "late night war" will be two guys named Koppel and Maher, plus others soon to occupy the same time slot. [Mark Evanier, a frequent LSN contributor and never-unemployed comedy writer, was named as one of the "100 coolest people in L.A." last year by Buzz Magazine.] Tom Heald's THIS NIGHT IN HISTORY Mo 6/2: In 1984, failed pilot "Welcome To The Fun Zone," hosted by deejay Dr. Demento, airs in "Saturday Night Live's" regular timeslot. Guests include Howie Mandel, John Candy, Bozo The Clown, and Weird Al Yankovic (who provides the show's theme song, "Fun Zone," which will end up on soundtrack to Yankovic's feature film "UHF"). Tu 6/3: In 1992, in one of the landmark moments of the 1992 presidential campaign, Democratic candidate Bill Clinton plays his saxophone on "The Arsenio Hall Show," wailing his way through "Heartbreak Hotel" and "God Bless The Child." We 6/4: Penis. Penis. Penis. In 1928, Karola Ruth Siegel is born. Siegel will grow up to become a psychologist, get married to a guy named Westheimer, and, using the name "Dr. Ruth," will not only host her own series of late-night talk shows on cable, but also manage to say the word "penis" several times as a guest on every other talk show on the planet, except "The 700 Club." Th 6/5, In 1987, "Nightline" presents its first "Town Meeting." The subject is AIDS and the show runs until 3:47 AM Eastern Time. Fr 6/6: In 1991, NBC publicly announces Jay Leno will replace Johnny Carson as host of "The Tonight Show" on May 25, 1992. Sa 6/7 : In 1991, nearly twenty years after its original run, ABC revives the "live" concert franchise "ABC In Concert." Says Poison lead singer Brett Michaels on the show's premiere, "It's about time live rock and roll is returning to the airwaves and this show will give fans the chance to see bands with all their sound and lights" (on tape). Su 6/8, 1933, future talk show hostess Joan Alexandra Sandra Molinsky is born. After being slapped by the doctor, baby Joan cries rivers of tears. JOAN. RIVERS. GET IT? IT'S A JOKE, SON! Mo 6/9: In 1989: Sammy Davis, Jr. makes his final appearance on "Late Night with David Letterman," plugging his book "Why Me" and belting out "I Can't Get Started With You." Davis will die a year later, 5/16/90. [Thanks to Davy Tanny, Gary Flinn, Timmy Brooks & Early Marsh. Special thanks to Donz5, stong as he can be. Ooooooooooooooooo, Watch out for that tree. ] THE LINEUPS (with Sue Trowbridge) Sue's got a new issue of The Circular File out! If you haven't yet seen her keen zine, stop everything and go directly to . ----------------------------------------------- LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN, CBS Mo 6/2 Elle Macpherson, Vince Vaughn, Jewel Tu 6/3 Michael Richards, Rick Reynolds, Steve Winwood We 6/4 Bill Cosby, Squirrel Nut Zippers Th 6/5 Alicia Silverstone, Dave Chappelle Fr 6/6 Farrah Fawcett, Craig Kilborn, John Fogerty Mo 6/9 Harrison Ford, Steven Wright, Dave Matthews Band Tu 6/10 Isabella Rossellini, Andy Dick, Gil Shaham We 6/11 Grant Hill, Seven Mary Three Th 6/12 Tom Brokaw, Patricia Richardson, Sheryl Crow Fr 6/13 John Travolta, Janeane Garofalo, Sinead O'Connor THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO, NBC Mo 6/2 Rene Russo, Larry Wolff (plays his teeth), Bob Carlisle Tu 6/3 Julie Scardina and Sea World animals, Vince Gill We 6/4 George Carlin, Michael Johnson Th 6/5 Mike Myers, Ruby Wax, Bush Fr 6/6 Nicolas Cage, Paula Poundstone Mo 6/9 Sandra Bullock, Charles Shaughnessy Tu 6/10 George Clooney, Gary McCord We 6/11 Chris O'Donnell Th 6/12 Arnold Schwarzenegger, Paulina Porizkova, Trisha Yearwood LATE LATE SHOW WITH TOM SNYDER, CBS Mo 6/2 Dolly Parton, citizen marathoner Bill Bell (R 12/9/96) Tu 6/3 Garry Shandling, Milwaukee brewery worker Wayne Watkins (R 11/ 8/96) We 6/4 Tony Danza, Fran Lebowitz (R 1/13/97) Th 6/5 Larry Flynt, Melissa Gilbert (R 12/ 3/96) Fr 6/6 Barry Manilow, former Pentagon investigator Dave Barrington (R 12/13/96) Mo 6/9 Morton Downey Jr. Tu 6/10 Mary Matalin LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN, NBC Mo 6/2 Alec Baldwin, Penelope Ann Miller, animal expert Clyde Peeling (R 2/20/97) Tu 6/3 Charlton Heston, Vince Vaughn, Pavement We 6/4 Michael Richards, Peta Wilson, Jamiroquai Th 6/5 Kathleen Turner, Matthew Sweet Fr 6/6 Tony Randall, Carmen Electra, Jim Rome Mo 6/9 Ice T, Dwight Yoakam, Jack Gallagher (R 2/26/97) LATER, NBC Mo 6/2 Teddy Carpenter with Casey Kasem Tu 6/3 Teddy Carpenter with John Witherspoon We 6/4 Carlos Mencia with Pauly Shore Th 6/5 Carlos Mencia with Coolio CHARLIE ROSE, PBS Mo 6/2 Cal Ripken Jr. Tu 6/3 Sen. John McCain We 6/4 R.W. Apple Th 6/5 TBA Fr 6/6 TBA Mo 6/9 Colin Powell Tu 6/10 Jerry Bruckheimer, Theodore Forstmann We 6/11 Charles Grodin, Dr. David Ho Th 6/12 Arthur Schlesinger, Jason Patric Fr 6/13 Isabella Rossellini POLITICALLY INCORRECT WITH BILL MAHER, ABC Mo 6/2 Dennis Miller, Mike Farrell, Ann Richards, Ann Coulter (R 1/23/97) Tu 6/3 Justine Bateman, Geraldo Rivera, Garry Shandling, Heather Higgins (R 1/31/97) We 6/4 Arianna Huffington, Kevin Rooney, Alan Alda, Cindy Crawford (R 2/26/97) Th 6/5 Jerry Seinfeld, Alex Trebek, Valerie Bertinelli, Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R 2/20/97) Fr 6/6 Chevy Chase, Jennifer Grossman, Steven Bochco, Susan Estrich (R 2/6/97) THE DAILY SHOW, Comedy Central Mo 6/2 Kim Coles ("Living Single") Tu 6/3 Elayne Boosler We 6/4 Ken Ober (host of ComCen's "Make Me Laugh" remake) Th 6/5 Reginald Vel Johnson ("Family Matters") SPACE GHOST COAST TO COAST, Cartoon Network Fr 6/6 Thurston Moore, music of Sonny Sharrock (R) Bill Nye and Michael Norman (R) HOWARD STERN, E! Mo 6/2 Stuttering John at VH-1 Awards, Crazy Croix Tu 6/3 Scott's Second Lung Test, Nikki Tyler We 6/4 Grandpa Al Lewis, Patsy with Amy Lynn Th 6/5 Dominic vs Robin in Hoops, Pt. 1, Phil Collins, Pt. 2 Fr 6/6 Dominic vs Robin in Hoops, Pt. 2, Albert Brooks Sa 6/7 The Sega Incident, Intern Garionette Kidnapped DIE HARALD SCHMIDT SHOW, SAT.1 Di 3/6 Klaus Toepfer (Leonard's dad ...?), Thomas Helmer Mi 4/6 Hellmuth Karasek, Didi Hamann, Anja Schade Do 5/6 Nadine Krueger Also on late nights: NIGHTLINE, ABC CHARLES GRODIN, CNBC CARSON'S COMEDY CLASSICS, Family Channel MAD TV, Fox SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, Comedy Central WORLD NEWS NOW, ABC UP TO THE MINUTE, CBS Entire contents Copyright 1997 by Aaron Barnhart. All rights reserved. Distributed by e-mail and BBS to over 10,000 readers weekly. Late Show News is made possible with the generous assistance of ECHO, New York City's premiere online service. Send news for and comments about this newsletter to aaron@tvbarn.com